Attorney Discerning

Just another poor dumb sinner; trying to do what he can for Christ & His Church

Friday, March 03, 2006

Still Soliciting Advice - SHOULD I BE A JESUIT?????


Re: My Concerns about the Jesuits

Richard John Neuhaus writes:

“”Among their rapidly declining numbers, there are Jesuits, both old and young, who want to renew the Ignatian charism, including loyalty to the pope, which was once the distinctive mark of the society. But it seems they are in a distinct minority. It should be noted also that my FIRST THINGS discussion of reactions to the instruction on gays and the priesthood is not limited to Jesuits by any means, although, admittedly, they have made themselves conspicuous.””

It is comments like this (as well as the views expressed in publications like America) that lead me to this inquiry.
Once Again: Please keep any comments coming, and inform knowledgeable, interested parties to this web page.

Robert King, Jesuit John and Others,mighty big thanks for the excellent advice. I have tracked down the material's you posted and have actively engaged them in my quest.
ALL: Please keep any comments coming, and inform knowledgeable, interested parties to this web page.

60 Comments:

At 9:43 AM, Anonymous Robert King, OP said...

One thing I was told when I entered my Order is that you don't join a community in order to reform it. On one level, that sounds like a defensive attitude, but in fact it's profoundly true. You join the Jesuits or the Dominicans or anybody else ONLY because God calls you to live that life -- no matter the current state of the community. For some, (maybe, in a sense, for all,) that may entail reforming their community, but first you have to be a member of the community. Only a Jesuit (or, possibly, the Pope) can have a vocation to reform the Jesuits.

The question is, what is God calling you to be and to do? Don't ask it in terms of this order or that, but in terms of way of life and mission. If you had to describe without reference to existing institutes what God is asking of you, what would that be.

Then, compare what you come up with to the Jesuits and whomever else might look like your vocation.

This is a back-and-forth process, and one where we all have blind spots; which is why I recommend a spiritual director.

Only when you've discovered if and to which community you're called, and after you've followed the call to the level of a lifelong commitment, does the question of how (usually not whether) you will reform or renew or just add to the life of the order.

So, I guess my advice is: if the only obstacle to the Jesuits is their apparent unorthodoxy as a group, then proceed straight on to pursuing a vocation there. Rest assured that there are orthodox Jesuits out there and that if you in fact have a vocation God will guide you to your place in the Society. (And if your vocation is elsewhere, you'll have clarified it by pursuing the Jesuit possibility. It's a win-win.)

But if you simply want to "get the Jesuits back on track", or if you're unsure whether the Jesuit charism is exactly right for you, then take some time and pray, think, and get direction about it.

 
At 5:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Opus Dei
Community of St John
Fraternal Society of St Peter

Get some spiritual direction, take a retreat at each of these communities or the order you feel you are being called to.

I agee with the above poster that the "reform" esp. of the Jesuits is nearly impossible at this point, academic freedom and secular thought have compromised their one holy and devout order.

Praying for your discernment

 
At 10:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, with all due respect, I think Neuhaus doesn't have his finger on the pulse of the Jesuits. Nor does what America tends to publish represent the Jesuit order. We (yeah, I'm a Jesuit) are huge and diverse.

If you want to know us without really meeting us all, take a sample of everything we are involved in.

If you want to know what we aspire to be, chuck what you know of us aside and read our founding documents (the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus) and more current official publications like General Congregation 34 or the Complementary Norms for our Constitutions.

If you feel God tugging you toward an order that aspires to that, well to hell with worrying about our public displays of our fallen human nature. When God calls, God calls. Nothing slimy or dishonest about wanting to help an order be what it wants to be.

The sissy in the white dress has a point: Don’t join a community in order to reform it. Join an order and be sure to reform it while you are there. And don’t forget. If God calls you to an order, you should be willing to let that order form you.

Hahhahahahah Of course I was kidding calling the OP a sissy in a white dress. I love OP’s. I have three friends that are OP’s. Plus Aquinas rocks. But come on. Jesuits in cassocks look like Neo in The Matrixs. OP’s look like this.

And the Opus Dei guy, well, you can probably guess I dissagree with his characterization of the Jesuits as "nearly impossible" to reform. I think we, like the Church, always need reform and it's wrong-headed to give up trying. But I won't call him a sissy. Those Opus Dei guys could have me killed!

Jesuit John

 
At 10:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS: Neuhaus says, "Among their rapidly declining numbers" but my province's numbers are actually at the replacement rate... AND GROWING! Muhuhahahahahah! I smell a come-back.

Jesuit John

 
At 11:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fitz,

I am discerning which Third Order to join. I am looking at not only the history of the orders in question, and where they stand today, but also at the spirituality of each order. Of course, the aim of all groups is union with God, but the ways of going about it are different. Ignatian spirituality is different from Benedictine spirituality, and etc. but the only way to figure which is the best fit FOR YOU is to learn about them.

Is your parish priest someone you can discuss these things with? If not, you should try to find a spiritual director (it's not easy!). You may possibly benefit from "Seeking Spiritual Direction," a book by Fr. Thomas Dubay, SM. (I don't know if you've ever seen him on EWTN - he looks like Les Nessman, but he's brilliant, and a prolific author.) I'm just getting into that particular book of his now, so I can't guarantee it will help you, but it might...

Someone mentioned Manresa. It is an incredible facility here in the metro Detroit area, and I think a retreat there (or at another local retreat house) is a great idea.

Also, if you are discerning the priesthood, I presume you are attending daily Mass (at least most days). I would also say that spending time with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is vital for discernment. The strongest and most lasting decisions I have made have been in His presence. Let Him guide you in your steps - it's such an amazing gift.

I probably haven't said anything you didn't already know, but I thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in anyway.

The best of luck to you.

Mary C.

 
At 2:39 PM, Blogger Gregg said...

I don't know if you're familiar with the Oblates of the Virgin Mary, but they could be of interest. They were formed during the early 19th century suppression of the Jesuits. They are a conspicuously orthodox order.

More info about them is available at:
http://www.oblatesofthevirginmary.org/apostolate.html

Regardless of where it leads, may your discernment process be fruitful to you and those whose lives you touch.

 
At 2:42 PM, Anonymous Fred S said...

Fitz,

e-mail me at fsynk@chglaw.com. We really should get together some time. I have at times had some of the same issues and thoughts. There are too many Fitz's in the bar journal directory to figure out who you are. I couldn't find an e-mail address or other way to contact you on your blogsite.

Bes regards,
Fred (previously posted as Catholictriathlete)

 
At 7:43 PM, Anonymous David said...

As another Jesuit (though still a lowly novice), I think Neuhause makes good points, but only if one takes into consideration the most visible parts of the Society. Most of the outspoken Jesuits tend to be the "activists" (and not necessarily in a good way), both because the ones currently formed were formed in the 60's and 70's, and because, well, that's the nature of an activist. I know Jesuits behind the scenes who are orthodox, I know Jesuits behind the scenes who are not. I think most who enter now, and who have entered in these last years, are by and large orthodox, but this is only after observing one province (New Orleans). In the end, the best advice come from Fr. Pedro Arrupe:

"To a young man who wishes to be a Jesuit, I would say:

“Stay at home if this idea makes you unsettled or nervous.

Do not come to us if you love the Church like a stepmother, rather than a mother.

Do not come if you think that in so doing you will be doing the Society of Jesus a favour.

Come if serving Christ is at the very center of your life.

Come if you have broad and sufficiently strong shoulders.

Come if you have an open spirit, a reasonably open mind and a heart larger than the world.

Come if you know how to tell a joke and can laugh with others and... on occasions you can laugh at yourself.”"

 
At 7:05 AM, Anonymous Rogue Jesuit said...

Fitz,

Whatever you do, don't enter the Chicago/Detroit novitiate. Most of the scholastics come away from there hating each other for some reason. Many of them have serious psychological problems that never get addressed. (However, they recently got a new novice master, so maybe there's more fromation there now-a-days.)

Head South!

 
At 8:10 AM, Anonymous Without Roots said...

Fitz,

If you want some good reading about political and social science, read the Pope's "Without Roots" which is a dialogue between then Cardinal Ratzinger and an Italian philosopher.

 
At 12:08 PM, Anonymous Robert King, OP said...

Dear Jesuit John,

I'll meet you on the playground after school. No gloves. Then we'll see who's the sissy. You can keep your gnostic fab-wear; I've got my Jedi cloak and the force to back it up.

Seriously: it's good to see the ole sibling rivalry still has some spirit on your side. The guys at JSTB seem so serious sometimes.

 
At 12:12 PM, Anonymous Robert King, OP said...

Anonymous (5:07pm) - I didn't say that the Jesuits were anywhere near beyond reform. No order or congregation is perfect. Nor are any hopeless. The Jesuits have a rich tradition and a powerful and necessary charism. Don't judge the society by the sins of some of its members.

 
At 3:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robert King OP,

Boy am I glad to see you took my comments as intended. I thought maybe your lack of response indicated you were upset.

The OP's I know are from Saint Louis University and I know three that entered the eastern province from SLU. They seem like good guys. At least that was before they started wearing white dresses...

Christ's Peace,
Jesuit John

 
At 12:10 AM, Anonymous Robert King, OP said...

Jesuit John,

Nope, just off-line for a couple days.

How long do you think it'll take us to convince Fitz that the real difference between SJs and OPs is that we have a noble and manly habit and you guys wear a funny plastic collar?

 
At 1:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh yeah? Well your best saint was fat.

 
At 1:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Know what I just realized? Fitz is going to get more of a glimpse into religious life than he bargained for. He gets to see a Jesuit and an OP insulting each other from midnight to 1:00 a.m. on a night most normal men are at home with their wives or out looking.

Jesuit John

 
At 9:30 AM, Anonymous Robert King, OP said...

But our Phattest Saint is Common Doctor of the Universal Church. Thomas Aquinas has a posse!

Top that, Jesuit John.

Truth be told, I always thought the Jesuits were founded to do the work the Dominicans were (at that point in our history) too fat and lazy to do. I really do see the Order and Society as kindred in spirit and charism. Different in method, obviously: I just can't understand consecrated life which is so individually based; a Dominican alone is half a Dominican. But that's why Jesuit John is an SJ and I'm an OP. Different personal gifts (and weaknesses) fit us for different vocations.

This brings me to something I should've mentioned right at the start: Fitz, you need to discern your vocation in terms of mission or work, and that will bring great clarity to your vocation in terms of state-of-life. Check out The Catherine of Siena Institute. Their main focus is on discernment for lay people, but it was actually working with them to discern my vocation as a layman that I discovered my Dominican vocation--and my Dominican vocation is much stronger because I discovered earlier some clues to what God is calling me to DO for his people in this life.

You haven't said much about what draws you to the Society of Jesus, and I'm not asking you to reveal anything you don't want to, but it's a good series of questions to ask: 1) Who did God make me to be, and what did God make me to do? 2) What are the Jesuits, and what does God call them to do? 3) How do I look like a Jesuit, and how not?

 
At 7:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjmissio.htm

I could be wrong, but I think we have more saints and martyrs than any other order/congregation/society/community etc...

Thats about the best I can do to top your phat saint, OP.

Jesuit John

 
At 2:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Fitz, God be praised for calling you.

We need more saintly Priests.

As to which Order I can give you the following suggestions:
1) Read the biography or autobiography of the founder. It should stir up something in you. Read other saints in the Order too, they should light some fires in you as well.
2) Find out the Order's charism: what is the Order's reason of being. Vatican II has asked Orders to go back yo the reasons why they were founded in the first place. I know that a major thrust of the Jesuits is caring for souls and battling the major injustice of our times.
3) Have come and see visits where you can ask questions, and find out about the Order's spirituality.
4) Research the typical management decision making process which demands that you look at more than one Order as well as Diocesan. Follow the process, it will take time. It is always nice to get it right the first time, so slow down. Because you are 35, you will have to watch the age limits certain Orders have. Go to Vocations.com fill out their forms and have interested Orders mail you information.
5) Fitz, you must know yourself. Are you autocratic, democratic, people oriented, task oriented, bureaucratic, etc. Depending on which you are certain Orders may not fit you, you have to be careful and very prayerful.
6) Find an orthodox spiritual director.
7) Have intercessors praying for you, I could recommend Intercessors of the Lamb in Nebraska, or your local Parish's prayer group.
8) Go to Mass at least 3 times a week, including Sundays.
9) Go to Eucharistic adoration or visiting Jesus in the Tabernacle.
10) Allow Mary to be your Mother in the manner of John, the beloved disciple.
11) Have an apostolate: visit the sick, visit the imprisoned, teach Sunday School.
12) Pray to Jesus, and see how you feel.


I wish you God's richest blessings. Keep an open mind and be patient and search your heart as well as God's.

I will be praying for you too.
R.G. Stewart

 
At 1:22 PM, Blogger Paris said...

From the sound of Robert King, OP meeting Jesuit John "in the playground with no gloves" they sound like religious GAYS......

 
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